...

Another issue. removing the stasis web bonus and nerfing the drone bay and bandwidth eliminates its use in most level 4 security missions. Reason being is how is this thing supposed to hit a frigate? I thought well just MJD away and then shoot frigates from distance.. but then as I was running a level 4 in my SNI it occured to me.. What would a Kronos pilot do if they were fighting a frigate that had them scrammed and was low on drones. (since to use MJD the Kronos would have to exit Bastion and spool the MJD; making it susceptible to EW) ..without a web bonus it would be near impossible to hit a fast moving frigate.

Pssst... hey kid... do You want module that gives you over 9000! reps when You need only 500?

Here You go ... totally useless

you forgot to point out how half arsed the web bonuses are, too.

And totally useful when I MJD 100km away every 60 sec and blap stuff with my 50km Neutrons... (yay)

The resist bonuses are worthless for 75% of the missions you would try to run, and in exchange for them the ships gave up 37.5% of their tank, 25% of their speed, gained 20% more mass and lost 10% HP.

It makes the ship 10% cheaper to gank.

Most of the time, you aren't. If you're Amarr, you NEVER are.

1.45x, and it isn't worth it.

Burning to gates is a huge isk/hr concern. As much as I love them, MJD make that very difficult, even with trig.

Starting to see more and more people push for things that pvpers need.

Obviously a damage bonus would be great but I'm sure thats pushing it...... The 82% web is definitely sexy though!

One thing is still puzzling me. Why are all of these sniper pve people complaing about the web like they have to put it on their ship? Do you put a scram on a falcon? No.... you keep range. Do you have to use every bonus? No... look at the gnosis!

Have to agree here. Marauders just got f**** over in this update.

So why would anyone want to use a Bastion Modules?
- No Resist Bonuses
- No Rep Armor Bonuses (Easier to kill)
- No more Remote Rep
- No Mass Penalty (Open to Bumpage that you cant avoid)

So is CCP telling me that the only bonuses to using a bastion module is that you get better range/falloff along with ewar immunity. ******* awful. At least let them keep their rep bonuses...

I never stated that the web bonus should take away from the marauders tank. Every ship in eve should be able to PVE and PVP depending on what the owner wants to do. CCP never said the marauders were meant for purely PVE. It's selfish to think that they are making these things for missions.

I'm all for a damage bonus but the marauders in a pvp situation need to be able to lock down their opponents. The bonused web now allows a pilot to do that but for some reason the PVE "specialists" think its directed at them. Don't fit a web if you don't want one!

Complaints at losing tank in non bastion mode are entertaining. Everyone constantly bitches that armour/shield boost bonuses are terrible and that resist bonuses are better. So we get the T2 bonuses that from memory are about as strong if not better than a 4% resist bonus and people complain! RR Logi is going to be very strong on these ships now. This is a huge buff from before even ignoring the bastion module.

Darkwolf mate are you serious all you have to do is put 1x em hardener in to your mids and you've got like 60% global resist profile.....

Level 4 missions... if you fail so bad you need 80% resists on a TECH TWO RESISTS BATTLESHIP then you should just biomass, I'm not even joking. I run an RNI with 2x invul fields and have NEVER come close to losing it in a level 4.. because I don't suck at this game.

You have got to be joking.

Wasting slots? It's one slot. Your average t1 ship fits 3-5? You really must be shitting me if you think that anyone will give you a ship that requires no tanking modules *at all* while being able to tank any level 4 (some of which can deal nearly 1k dps) without breaking a sweat? I don't bandy the term carebear around much but you sir clearly deserve the title if you do indeed such a severe degree of hand-holding and mollycoddling.

You want my RNI fit? I'll get it for you.

[Raven Navy Issue, Raven Navy Issue fit]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner
Large Micro Jump Drive
Large Shield Extender II
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile

Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Large Core Defense Field Extender II
Large Ionic Field Projector I


Vespa II x5
Hammerhead II x5


Zainou 'Snapshot' Cruise Missiles CM-605
Zainou 'Deadeye' Missile Projection MP-705
Zainou 'Deadeye' Guided Missile Precision GP-805
Zainou 'Deadeye' Target Navigation Prediction TN-905
Zainou 'Deadeye' Rapid Launch RL-1005

Vitals are: 1200dps - 117km range
80k EHP
top speed of 460m/s + MJD

The thing you must understand is that over a certain level you don't even need to fit tanking modules. Not significantly anyway. While the fit I've posted is pretty much just for running missions it could serve as a guideline for how to fit a golem so here goes

Golem (odyssey 1.1)

[Golem, Golem solo stuff]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Large Micro Jump Drive
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Pith X-Type Large Shield Booster
Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner
EM Ward Field II
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II


Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5


Low-grade Crystal Alpha
Low-grade Crystal Beta
Low-grade Crystal Gamma
Low-grade Crystal Delta
Low-grade Crystal Epsilon
Low-grade Crystal Omega
Zainou 'Deadeye' Missile Projection MP-705
Zainou 'Deadeye' Guided Missile Precision GP-805
Zainou 'Deadeye' Target Navigation Prediction TN-905
Zainou 'Deadeye' Rapid Launch RL-1005

As you can plainly see only 2 tanking modules + rigs to extend your tanking cycle

vitals are 1100 dps
Top speed 360 + MJD
tank is 51k EHP, 220 sustained tank , 530 burst tank - 4min 30s cap life.

If you need more than this you are terrible at this game. Even without the crystals you should be FINE for any level 4 I can think of.

Or I could just not. Level 5's are stupid for a variety reasons that are well documented, the fact that lowsec is retardedly broken as one of the top reasons.



No I'm not missing the point.

The point is: to gain an advantage you need to make a sacrifice. A one slot omni tanking module that is more powerful than t2 resists is stupid. That's why people hated the original design.

Lowgrade crystals, faction BCS, etc etc... yeah so what? It's a ship worth nearly a bil on its own. Without the LG's it tanks 390/160 which is still enough considering - and here's the kicker - that as you kill stuff the incoming dps decreases. The added bits to the fit aren't really that important, I used to run level 4's in a drake. If you need something that tanks as much dps as a dread to win at level 4's you have serious problems.

I *did* post a 2 slot tanking golem. If the basis of your complaint is that without bastion the marauders will now be worse than before well that's CCP's design failures not the actual modules fault huh..

I do not condemn. I have just given my interpretation of present state. From you comment of choosing damage I guess you're talking about running anoms, where Paladin seems to be indeed at disadvantage. During missions damage chooses you, so it's where Paladin has an advantage, and in incursions and wormholes you omni tank anyway, advantage again.

Also this "more even" T1 profile is because it's much weaker to begin with! I remind you that we're talking about 1 to 3 hardeners on T2 vs. obligatory 3 or even 4 on T1.

Maybe these guys know something more than we do about the future of missions in the game, and the one thing that these ships excel at (OK, armour Marauders do pretty well in Incursions), won't be in its current form after the winter iteration.

Remember the background of the dev's, read their comments about PvE over the past couple years, especially high sec, and then guess what might be "rebalanced".

I ... what? the paladin is still probably the marauder that gets the best deal out of this thingy. dat optimal bonus! armor reps just got +15% and will get +100% in bastion still. oh yes and a ton of cap! the thing doesn't need the rep bonus for lv4s as is.

also it can do the same dps as the nightmare, and I think I'll take the optimal bonus over the tracking bonus most of the time. not to mention all that cap (again) and the ability to press a button and get +100% reps!

Except that lasers already have a great range set for missions. The optimal bonus may be good for PvP but on a mission boat a tracking bonus would probably be worth more, especially since it's not stacking penalized.

ITT: Terrible terrible players that complain they need a tank bonus on top of a 100% rep bonus to run L 4s.

Also, ridiculous hyperbole asking CCP to change nothing rather than do this, as if range, resist, scan res, tank and we immunity bonuses are worse to have than 15% ehp and speed.

it doesn't need to stand out on tank with an optimal range and damage bonus on tachyons.

From a tachyon gamma will just shoot just a bit shorter than scorch and do more dps, xray will do slightly less dps and out range scorch.

neither the bastion mod or the MJD will be needed for a paladin. although it is nice the 25% optimal from bastion will be the biggest optimal bonus so it goes first in the stacking penalty formula.

ITT: Terrible terrible players that complain they need a tank bonus on top of a 100% rep bonus to run L 4s.

Also, ridiculous hyperbole asking CCP to change nothing rather than do this, as if range, resist, scan res, tank and we immunity bonuses are worse to have than 15% ehp and speed.

With the goal of these ships being to project better damage over longer distances I cant help but feel the web bonus is very out of place being that its a very close range tool. I much preferred the the bonus to the active tank.

i would agree, but that would mean changing weapons systems as well. Personally i dont think its a huge deal though, the resists i mean.

And double active repair.

It just depends on how you like to rat... up close and personal or jump to range. Either way the tank is well beyond what you will need, especially in Bastion mode.

I dont understand why everyone is freaking out about the bastion module and how well it may or may not work in PvP; it isnt as though the module HAS to be used.

Its just like the carrier, sometimes you use triage, other times it turns your ship into a flying coffin . . .

As it stands right now, I can see these ships warping in at 100 and sniping, then using the MJD to escape when anyone gets too close.

If you had some tackle frigates to keep fast interceptors off, you could easily just keep MJDing away from everyone and they'd never catch up to you, especially if youre MWDing away from them as soon as you land.

Test is on HACs...

Paladin will hit 70% Armor Resists with an EM Pump, Thermic Hardener, and DCU.
Kronos will hit 70% Armor Resists with an EM Pump, Explosive Hardener, and DCU.
Vargur will hit 70% Shield Resists with an Invuln and DCU.
Golem Will hit 70% Shield Resists with an EM Hardener, Invuln, and DCU
(These include Links).

Well, that's a problem for you then as these ships are designed around the core principal of using MJD and Bastion mode as their primary advantage.

Don't under rate their other advantages though, numerous utility slots, tractor bonus (blah), greatly reduced cap usage due to only 4 weapons, etc. on top of being a BS with t2 resists.

If you are looking for an overpowered ship that is clearly superior in every traditional sense to pirate vessels this is not going to be your boat. Pirate vessels are supposed to be top of the heap by design. Granted, this would make more sense if the price tag on Marauders dropped to a comparable level or a bit less than pirate vessels. A tweak in that direction would not go amiss.

better at killing what?

does it do more potential dps? how does that dps apply?

Ah there you are wrong Mate. Amarr racial enemy, the Minmatar, deal ALL damage types. Thats why Amarr should have more of a omni tank (but still with exlpo/kin being the highest).

you said it yourself that 2 would be good for rats, while 2 would not...those other 2 are better at omni tanking, which is good for other things. And yes going from one race to another causes a huge problem with weapons training, that there is no doubt.

Why do a lot of people think it should be just better than pirate? Because it costs more in isk and sp, and if pirate is just plain better for all situations (which it is currently) then there is never a reason to get a marauder

Tanking a lot better? Ok MAYBE you have a point, but in many pve applications this doesnt help at all, and for the few it does, it means you are probably doing it solo, (i.e., doing it wrong) meaning that if you use multiple, then it is useless as they can not be RR'ed. Meaning its ONLY application is solo where tons of tank is required, which isnt going to be as efficient as a group of RR'ed ships anyway

tank a vanguard solo? Well besides the fact that was for the previous version (not the current iteration) he only explicitly said the first wave of a VG. This does not imply it can tank the whole site, in fact, even if it could he said the fit was altered to have even less dps. There would NEVER be a reason to do this because A. if you solo an incursion you get 0 pay out, and B. it would be better to use a fleet of RR'ed ships with higher dps

Is overheating that hard for you?

Constant?

OH is for people trying to killyou not NPC rats


....if you needa web for NPCs you are ******* up alreay.

Ever seen a rorqual deply or a dread in siege? Wit the bastion online you wont go anywhere when a hostile is on field considering the undeployment time, the basition to finsish cycle and the mjd spooling up... thats like 3 of 3 things to much

Yes, this is why everyone but you is calling bullsh*t on adding a close range bonus to a long range class without drones. Right because ships with MJD and long range firepower are meant to web their targets, for a mere 1.5 billion and a gazillion skillpoints.

MJD adds range tank, that's nice for a sniper. Bastion should add close range firepower, be it raw alpha, damage delivery or increased DPS.

That would make worth the way higher price tag.

or it just needs to have less drawbacks.

no it was still a "click here for a 1bn isk+ lossmail" button.

easily, marauders bar the golem do not put out massive dps, they just apply it easier, and track smaller targets

EDIT: forgot the kronos, and both can be out dps'd by a navy ship

I have an idea. Why don't you give it a 25% damage increase in bastion mode. In exchange you give it a 37.5% nerf to tracking (plus a similar missile debuff). This would cancel out the tracking bonus the kronos and vargur get at level V, and make the two modes completely different. If you don't train marauders to level V, you will have a serious problem tracking frigates. You could also make it 20% and 30% respectively, but having the larger values would require a large skill investment to properly fly the ship.

So in your world 100% bonus together with buffed resists is less than 37.5% bonus?

"and with the bastion mod it wont tank enough"

And the resist buff is very close to the amount of old rep bonus.

Sometimes I wonder how people can use CNR's, nightmares, machs and vindicators for lv 4's without those tank-bonuses..

The problem with the first iteration was that it was too extreme- overpowered in micro engagements without logi, and useless even in small gangs with logi (=solo logi or a pair). I find going for T2 resists expands the viability of marauders a lot.

Agreed to a large degree, but keep in mind something on the first and last point you made.

The immunity to EW effect of Bastion mode actually was probably incorporated with PVE in mind primarily. Marauders are easily shut down in many missions due to low sensor strength, and even ships with normal sensor strengths and such can struggle.

The MJD is very, very commonly used in missions. Not so much (as of yet) in PVP, so yes there it is pretty situational.

Sentry drone use benefits the most, yes... but it's starting to be a staple for anyone wishing to snipe as they come in, which opens up a larger variety of hulls and interesting fits. In those cases especially the EW immunity will certainly be a boon (especially vs damps or tracking disruptors) as it speeds up mission completion time significantly.

As far as range advantages go, I'd say they are pretty universal as they apply to turret optimal and fall off, as well as missile velocity.

Short range weapons extend their kill zone significantly with long range ammo, and long range weapons have no need to boost their range and can likely use short range, high damage ammo most of the time.

Keep in mind that many players don't understand fitting for gank if your NPC targets are weak to your weapons, and max tank if you are weak to their weapons. It doesn't make sense to them unless their chosen NPC target is both weak to their damage type and also using weapons that deal damage the players ship is strongest versus.

Limiting yourself to your own racial space is a somewhat silly concept in EVE. Choose and fit your ship according to what you will be facing. Stop demanding that a ship have ideal resists and the perfect damage type for the local enemy.

And in the unlikely event that you can't choose or fit a ship to fit your purposes vs. a particular NPC... choose a different target.

Meanwhile, carry on.

Still runs into the problem of ships that don't have to make this trade-off (Kronos and Golem) vs ships that do (Vargur and Paladin). Which would overall be much less of an issue if they still had their local repair bonuses, even with the T2 resists.

- That first one did kind of come out of left field, but switching to a T2 resist profile has never made a hull incomplete.

- Which missions exactly? I haven't ever used anything greater than T2 modules for tanking during missions. I even pulled out a few old non-faction T1 missions ships to give them a go over the last couple of days. Not once did I find myself needing to warp out of a mission, whether it be world's collide or any of the extravaganza missions (including bonus rooms).

- With a T1 resist profile a rep bonus certainly does allow you to juggle tank mods, with a T2 resist profile you can get away with using fewer tank mods to begin with.

- When 3 out of 4 resists are 50% or higher before adding any tank mods, you are going to be at a distinct advantage when facing a majority of NPC's compared to other ships. However since I'm clearly missing the point, would you be so kind to explain to me how that is debatable? I am genuinely curious.

As for the Paladin, it has the exact same problem nearly all other (T1/T2/Faction) Amarrian hulls have. Perhaps we should just switch either the primary weapon system or tanks on Amarr hulls altogether to alleviate this problem.

- Then request a more appropriate T2 resist profile for those two ships. This gives you the tank you want for your local NPC's, providing greater opportunities for PvE fits to fulfill it's niche role better, and allows the ship to be more flexible in other play styles as well.

- Again, if better resists are such a downgrade why are resist bonuses still on the chopping block? I also didn't realize that there was ever a point in bringing less DPS to missions. Especially when you aren't applying the DPS any better.

- Nothing wrong with having an inexpensive DPS boat, though a bit unimaginative I'll grant you. My point was that the hull was used much more frequently than marauders ever have been and it survived a very significant balance change just fine.

Another point from left field, I have noticed that a few people have been pointing out that there have been 40-50+ pages since the announcement of dropping the rep bonus in favor of T2 resists. What they haven't been pointing out is that a majority of those posts are by the same people. So either the marauder club in EVE has hired a spokesperson(s) or there are just a few very vocal people who don't like the switch.

Many longer playing pvp'ers are blaming 90% webs for dreadblapping working aswell as it currently does (and should imo), with 81% (?) webs, stacking penalties will reduce the max efficiency of the two webs max you could ever justify from some 97% down to some 90% (?). It is a whole lot better in comparison to a traditional unbonused web, but it doesn't push them over the edge I believe. 7.5% bonus is a fine thing, now that the repairbonus mostly got built into the hull by resistances.

As was looking forward to flying a Vargur with the first revision, now looking forward to fly a paladin :>

It's irrelevant where the 50% resist originates from as it's still part of the T2 resist profile and it's application works exactly the same as the other resists. Likewise, you've ignored my suggestion that the T2 profile is modified to match faction NPC's. Bringing the two boosted resists to where they need to be.

It's hardly beyond the scope as the biggest issue everyone seems to have with dropping the rep bonus for a T2 resist profile is that the default racial profile is incompatible with faction NPC's. Therefore requesting a modified T2 resist profile to better match up with faction NPC's makes sense as it would end up providing a stronger tank than the current rep bonus for these ships in their home systems.

I understand that only two of the four resists get a boost, but you've completely ignored my suggestion that people request a modified T2 resist profile to match up faction NPC's. Which would resolve this issue entirely.

I was speaking of the hull bonus on other ships (Prophecy, Drake, etc.) that used to receive 5% resists/level. These bonuses were nerfed because of how much more powerful they were when compared to local rep bonuses. While these bonuses dropped down to 4% resist/level, they are still on the chopping block to be reduced even further to 3% resist/level if need be to further balance them against local/remote repping.

That's part of what CCP is trying to change by rebalancing the ship.

not really the field command ship resist profile is much better then the current maruader resists. so that a big plus one for it being outside of bastion mode.

but when its in bastion mode that extra 30% unstacked resits coupled with FCS resists would be way way to high. so i see this as a reasonable compromise.

you may see it as worst of both worlds but i see it was best of both.

its a good thing we are both entitled to our opinions.

personally i am rather happy with the way maraders are proposed in the op. but there are those who are rather upset to see the full tech II resists go away because that means they hurt outside of bastion mode. what i am trying to propose is meeting half way. giving the ships decent resists outside of bastion while still giving it some boost inside.

Oh well time to sell my marauders then, I didn't want that marauder 5 anyway.

Is it really that much to ask to simply address the issues that I have pointed out multiple times in this thread instead of making them all basically useless for people that used them for what they where made for?

While that's not low tank, it seems kinda low considering bastion.

It that a perma tank with standard large rep or what?

Cause I can fit a golem currently with 960 dps tank at its weakest resist with an XL pith x.
Granted, with a cap booster it only lasts for 4 minutes, but still...

I would think bastion gives another 100% to boost amount.. So that's at least another 500 dps... Then the additional resists from bastion... I would think upwards of 2k dps tank at my weakest resists...

There's no way that bastion only provides a 400 dps buff in omni tank.

My nightmare fit has almost 700 dps at its weakest when omni fitted.
However, it receives no rep or resists...

So, hull bonus means 37.5% higher...
Bastion is 100% higher, and with more resists.


We're talking easily 1500 dps tank at its weakest on my golem fit.

Yeah... got ya... sorry guys.. misread/misunderstood.

That said, my current Golem fit will go from (assuming the 185% increase is fairly accurate) from 960 at its weakest resist, to 2736.. However, are you saying 185% above what I get in my Golem now, or are you saying 185% increase over a base tank with no bonuses?

Actually the kronos was nerfed the most considering its web bonus is what made the ship useful. It already gets jammed out in a heart beat so now if its tank is failing you start bastion.... then the target burns out of your normal web.... End of story. The blasters needed the 90% web and now the ship is worthless. Would rather use a mega now.

There is less pvp capability with these ships. Only a fool will die to a ship that can't move.

I lied, I'm posting. Sorry. Just had to.



I assume it's because the mega gets the same tracking bonus, has a larger drone bay and bandwidth, and you can buy ten hulls for the cost of one kronos?

Gee, CCP nerfing the hell out of PvE, who would have thunk it.
You are a bit behind the times.
The devs who have been hired from null sec have been attacking any PvE operations, especially high sec ops, for a long time now.

See in null sec, a player just flits about space using jump bridges.
Check that, the null cartel players who have the JB passwords flit about, avoiding the bulk of these changes.

Those who live in high sec and low sec, or NPC null sec, well, you are screwed. Sucks to be you.
Guess you did not get the memo that the only successful and CCP-endorsed way to play this game is in a null sec cartel.

I feel this way. I never understood why a ship that takes less training time to pilot is better than a ship that takes more training time to pilot.

Slated for Rubicon

Never tested til TQ.

I love being an alpha tester.

Appreciate the feedback but this doesnt seem likely. 249km with bastion on means that the bonus from bastion is only 3%. Someone can achieve 239km max currently on TQ and if add the 5% range hardwiring, can reach as max as 249km. Some of your missile range skils are not maxed out, there is no other explanation

Still, for all those testing the Golem, I think a combination of the 2 iterations will benefit it alot.

Remove 7.5% shield boost bonus, keep the Bastion mode 100% bonus.
Bring back the T2 battleship resistances, get rid of the 30% bastion mode resist bonus, maybe add a 5% per skill level damage bonus to the Bastion module.
Add a 5% per level damage application modifier in place of the shield bonus.

Golem is the ONLY marauder with no damage application bonus.

With these small tweaks, someone can use either a MWD or a MJD setup. Use the buffered resistances to get into location, lock down and tank back up while bringing Hell onto the battlefield, while still not being completely overpowered.

And maybe use Tactical Weapon Reconfiguration for the Bastion module too, since it IS a dreadnought mode, (or make a new skill similar, to apply the incremental damage bonus mentioned above.)

As someone else mentioned earlier, the progression of the Golem is going sideways, while the other 3 marauders are actually going forward.

Valid statement but...

Thisis why T2 resists will be a better option because it'll benefit both in and out of Bastion. As is, the Golem gets a 0% EM resist regardless of T1 or T2 ship resists, you'll have that hole no matter what.

Painters are okay, but the ship already has an explosion velocity bonus, which still don't do jack for T2 Rage torpedoes, but you can whack frigates with CN torpedoes pretty easily with a single paint. Because paints will have a 5s delay instead of 10, and my 5s ROF, I'll only need 1 paint, and one of your rigs should be a T2 Rigor rig anyway.

Gank is tank, so replacing the 7.5% per level boost bonus with a 5% rate of fire bonus would significantly increase the DPS of the Golem, and its overall damage application especially with faction missiles and launchers.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:Quoting myself not to leave you in the dark.


CCP Ytterbium wrote:
So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.

I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.

Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.


This is a bad idea .....if you cant see that then you cant see past your own nose......just make a new class of ship???

...If I was going to roam with these in a gang, I would bring either one of the new EWAR frigs or any other dedicated platform to bring bonused webs. Why on earth would you have to just bring these in gang for PVP or PVE?...

heh. might wanna get your detector tuned up. this is eve.

I live in Wicked Creek. Come by for a visit, and we'll undock our "small" gang.

Who cares about tractor beams. The new salvage module in Rubicon will be OP...

Stored in cargo, drags loot to a central location, frees up x number of high slots for smart bombs, etc. Sounds good on paper anyway...

The most disturbing problems with the Bastion are:

Absolute E-war immunity, ignores sandbox game mechanics.

Absolute RR/assistance lockout, ignores sandbox game mechanics.

Promotes halfwit play styles by ignoring mechanics and limiting choices.

...

I am directly aiming my critique at the Bastion and what using it entails, moving away from the bastion as the center of the topic and saying that not using it is an alternative solution is missing the point and as it happens, not true.
Bastion will be mandatory, the mobility of Marauders among other things is already being nerfed, so choices are in fact being limited.
Anyone planning not to use the Bastion will find any faction/pirate ship will easily outperform Marauders; Marauders are deliberately being designed around the Bastion and you will have a hard time not using it because of the costs in the balancing.

Additionally, my gripe with the Bastion is not the idea that it isn't usable for at least something like gimmick PvP, it is that the module has severe flaws and it should be abolished as it currently is being presented, more so due to the fact it presents no actual interesting or fun mechanics to speak of when speaking of following the Marauder role.

Immunities:

Conditional immunities ignore the very idea of having established mechanics which exist have any effect on the results, which means you have balanced E-war for the whole game but then decide to circumvent this mechanic by a simple conditional rule which states, here the rules don't apply, effectively creating a second rule, every immunity is another rule and exception added to the first.

Would you support missiles which always applied full damage through a conditional and ignored signature radius/exp velocity? No you wouldn't, exact same thing, the proper way to do it is to follow mechanics in a relatively reasonable manner.

If in this case E-war is too powerful then rebalance it, revisit the mechanics and alter them to function as intended, just do not create new ways to avoid the problems.

E-war immunity ignores the sandbox mechanics for E-war, which is a use for sensor strength to determine efficiency, if there was a legit suggestion they would give Marauders a relatively high sensor strength in Bastion and not just outright cut them out from the sandbox in that specific area; Sandbox mechanics rely on the fact that they apply without selective interpretation causing meta rule sets, effectively destroying the whole concept in the process.

RR/assistance lockout ignores the idea of partaking in more complex parts of multiplayer gaming, it is a counterproductive limitation at best, promoting locked out solo play is out of touch with the whole concept of MMOs regardless of the fact if it is ignoring how RR works with mere conditionals.

Again, if you won't be using Bastion then you'll be better off in other ships by default, there is no choice between having the Bastion module or not, it is a choice between Bastion Marauder and Pirate Battleship, the live Marauders will no longer exist.

If you're even remotely interested in fluent mobility and kiting you will pick a Pirate Battleship.

The only choice you are getting with Bastion is, will I deploy here and die or win?

You are getting this one choice to substitute all the mobile intricacies of EVE combat, E-war threats and even quite simply the consequences of taking damage in many situations, successful tanking of damage becoming a guarantee rather than an active process of skill to manage a capacitor and avoid excess damage in multitudes of ways

The Ignoring of the whole concept of support in terms of remote assistance in situations where you should have need for it is one of the greatest flaws in Bastion design, when you are deployed.

It literally defines the idea of picking the worst of all possible scenarios into one module currently.


The Bastion undeniably promotes poor play styles, it throws every common sense defensive or offensive maneuver/adjustment out of the window and simplifies everything.

Better damage application? Hardly all you do is extend your guns out a bit further. You are hitting **** at a larger range but its still the same amount of damage being applied. At least with webs you are essentially increasing the tracking rate of your guns thus hitting better. In no way is extending the optimal range actually applying better damage.

"Group play" extends beyond incursions. Get your head out of your ass, Dinsdale.

I for one approve of CCP nerfing ridiculous Incursion income by indirect means such as The Marauder RebalanceGäó.

CCP should create a new PVP oriented ship.

CCP should leave the current marauders as PVE ships.. Cause they are the "only" PVE ships. There's no other ship with a PVE role. This changes are not adding diversity or choices, they're taking them away.

Yet most do. Heck the golem 8 effective launchers compared to the raven's 6, and the kronos gets 8 effective turrets over the megathron's 7. Both get better application on top.

The maelstrom and abaddon can actually out dps their race's marauders in certain situations

It doesn't matter how "fast" it is, because if you can drop a few of these things you've just gained several tractor beams that can 'slowboat' the wrecks/cargo to a fixed location. With the bonus you're proposing, yes - that would compete with a Noctis.

Where are you getting the 74%?

Thought it would be 237.5% over standard?

Oh, and is it stacking penalized?

I'm guessing without bonus I would rep 5-6% with pith-x XL.
So, if i'm repping 26% with bastion and lvl 5 marauder (no implants I believe).

That's.....over 4x more rep than without any bonuses...... Maybe my math is wrong...

Sorry to re-visit this, but just to confirm: it's a 137.5% shield boost bonus with Marauders-V and Bastion on the Golem, correct? I think with T2 rigors, the new RHMLs and Bastion you'll have a decent setup for mission running (I'm guessing probably a range of around 75km with max skills). Damage application is going to be fairly decent with a sub-75m explosion radius (plus the explosion velocity bonus), which will probably mitigate the 20% DPS somewhat. Paper DPS is often radically different than real-world applied DPS.